think of me sweetly. ([info]aheadsuretospin) wrote in [info]dogsintraining,
  • Mood: curious
Background info:

Name: Bunny Rabbit
Breed: Catahoula Leopard Dog
Age: Roughly 9 months old
Sex: Male/Neutered

Okay, I got Bunny when he was roughly 8 weeks old(his BYB who was dumping him at a shelter said 4 weeks). He was a breeze to house train and he has a wonderful need to please personality(most of the time).

I have 2 other dogs(both 2 years old, a Pit Bull and a Border Collie) who have "graduated" to not needing to be crated at night. And I was hoping that keeping Bunny on leash with human roommates in the house whenever we're awake would help him catch on to inside behavior. He's been at it for almost a month now, with no change. He's a very sensitive and attentive dog. Besides his temperment I think NILIF has helped that along. He follows me around the house, my face not leaving his gaze, but once I sit down he's bounce bounce bounce. Leashing him results in him bouncing, getting pulled back when he hits the leash end and yelping while he pulls backwards trying to get the leash away(I pay no attention because I don't want him to think that he'll get loved on if he throws a fit, I will give him attention when and if he settles down).

He's never(since I've had him) been intentionally or accidently hurt by a leash. I don't think keeping him leashed inside is hurting him really. And he's fine on leash outside. I think his behavior is him trying to see what he can get away with for lack of better words.

He does the following for exercise/activity:
- Flyball with a trainer(4x a week).
- Agility at home(roughly 2 hours a day).
- Two walks/runs a day(2 miles each).
- Weekend trips to a friends property where he runs and swims for 6-8 hours(1-2x a week).
- Daily obedience refreshers.

I keep all the dogs on a set schedule so they have a routine. My Border Collie is lost without a schedule. They eat at set times everyday, they go out at set times everyday and each get individual person attention at set times. And each dog has a crate in a seperate room of the house(the one they're most comfortable in) for feeding and to just get away.

So I've tried using his obedience commands to get him to just lay down and chill. I don't expect him to just lay there an not move. I just expect him to know that playing antelope on furniture and clobbering you when you're sitting down isn't acceptable behavior. I've tried everything I know of that I did with the Border Collie and Pit Bull and it's just not working. I prefer only positive reinforcement.

I don't want to keep him crated all the time, I think that would be cruel. Right now he's crated from about 12am to 7am(when everyone's asleep), because I can't trust him out of his crate with no supervision. Other than that, he's either outside or inside with supervision at all times.

He also has plenty of toys to keep him occupied as well as doing little activities(hunting for treats type thing) inside during the day. Through all this I am trying to keep in mind he still is a puppy.

Sorry this post is so out of order.

Any ideas or info is greatly appreciated. Thank you.

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  • 21 comments

[info]cottonmanifesto

July 15 2005, 16:08:35 UTC 6 years ago

Puppies do this "OH MY GOD I'M DYING" scream thing when they're freaked out for some reason. Sometimes, they'll do it out of frustration.

Have you tried changing position while Bun's supposed to be doing something (like sit-stay) and having him get used to that? I just practiced this with my dogs the other day - they were in a sit-stay and I sat down about 10 feet away (and didn't release them) and of course they just came over to me. Well, we worked on that a bit and it helped a TON.

Maggie simply MUST slobber all over you if you're sitting down. It's like an implied invite. :) Something about it is just SO exciting. If I was going to train her out of this, I'd ask for a sit *before* sitting down and then treat her through my movements (so she wouldn't break her sit) and then probably ask for a hug and kiss afterwards since it's what she just loves. :)

[info]aheadsuretospin

July 15 2005, 16:17:21 UTC 6 years ago

Yes, I've noticed that. "I want to see that piece of grass!" "No you have to come this way." "OMG NOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!*insert falling down, rolling over and making the neighbors think you're beating me*AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

We love puppies.

Bunny's an expert with on and off leash work.... outside. Inside when I try giving him commands he looks at me with his head cocked to the side, then bounce bounce bounce, when he's on leash it results in a tantrum. If he could respond to commands inside, like he does outside, we'd be set. I'm wondering if putting him through a training course that's done inside, if it would make a difference(there's a 10 class basic session coming up in August).

And I see where I went backwards with what you said. I usually sit, then tell him to. I'll have to try reversing the order. I hadn't thought of that.

[info]cottonmanifesto

July 15 2005, 16:19:40 UTC 6 years ago

Drama queen pups are just HILARIOUS!!!

It's pretty funny that Bun's bad indoors but great outdoors. :) Mine are the opposite.

Yup, try changing your position as you're giving commands - it shouldn't matter to the dog if you're facing them, sitting, or lying down.

[info]aheadsuretospin

July 15 2005, 16:23:04 UTC 6 years ago

Yes, I think Kilkee and Ripley went easy on me. They caught on right away(for the most part), they even wait for permission to get on the couch.

Bunny's testing my mad skillz haha.

[info]cottonmanifesto

July 15 2005, 16:32:42 UTC 6 years ago

Never forget - YOU ARE THE ONE WITH THE THUMBS!

[info]kerath

July 15 2005, 17:33:44 UTC 6 years ago

LOL!

That gave me such a good chuckle. Sometimes I really think all I am to my dogs is a couple of thumbs. "Hey! You with the thumbs! Open the fridge and get me some food!"

[info]cottonmanifesto

July 15 2005, 17:38:31 UTC 6 years ago

Sometimes I waggle my thumbs at my dogs and say 'nyah nyah!' :)

[info]kerath

July 15 2005, 17:40:18 UTC 6 years ago

...and then they do the same with their tails to you, right?

[info]cottonmanifesto

July 15 2005, 17:43:22 UTC 6 years ago

Like I care?! You can't open a fridge with a tail!!! :p

[info]kerath

July 15 2005, 17:48:19 UTC 6 years ago

No. But if you were, say, a lab, you could whack people with it and use it to knock things of the coffee table. Wouldn't that be fun!

[info]aheadsuretospin

July 15 2005, 17:49:13 UTC 6 years ago

Pit Bull tails do that too lol.

[info]cottonmanifesto

July 15 2005, 17:52:46 UTC 6 years ago

Or you could be my Maggie who has a tail like a freaking elephant whip that she destroys me with daily! :)

Personally, I'd rather get at the ice cream. :)

[info]miss_teacher

July 15 2005, 16:22:11 UTC 6 years ago

If he's not as good with the commands inside on leash then I would just help him out a bit. If the leash is distracting him so much and he's being a drama queen I would ut the treat right in his nose and guide him to a sit. Show him that yes, even inside with a leash, even when you are spazzing out, a sit still means you have to sit. Get the behavior even if you are helping him out a lot like he was a baby puppy. I find if you do that the dog learns faster and will be just as good in this situation as he is in the other.

[info]miss_teacher

July 15 2005, 16:18:59 UTC 6 years ago

(I pay no attention because I don't want him to think that he'll get loved on if he throws a fit, I will give him attention when and if he settles down).

I think this is perfect and is exactly what I would be doing.

I would also provide my dog with a bullystick or stuffed kong to help her settle down and give her something to do while I want her to relax near me.

Also, what about blocking off the living room so he's *right* there with you but not on leash? Then again you will provide him with an activity, like a stuffed kong or Buster Cube.

When you ask him to down to chill out are you rewarding him? I'm very generous with my rewards (tiny pieces though) in order to let the dog know that it's always the best option to listen to me. so in the beginning I would ask him to down and then provide a very continuous reward schedule. My dog would be getting a treat every 3 seconds if that's what it took to keep her there with me. Then it would be slowly thinned out of course and on a random interval schedule. During the commercials I would get up and walk her around the living room for a break, then back to the down and slow dispensing of the treats to show her to hang out.

My dog is a terrier and was *all* over the place as a baby. Thank goodness I've shown her to values of being a couch potato when I want her to be one :) She will even sleep in late with me if I need her to. She's not a lazy dog but can turn it off and on now. I thought this day would never come! :)


Hang in there. You are doing great things and he is getting such a good amount of exercise. I think things will for sure improve. He's just at the teenage age period right now. So he'll be testing everything, going through very active bursts, etc.

[info]aheadsuretospin

July 15 2005, 16:37:38 UTC 6 years ago

Bunny has a variety of kongs(there is kong time daily), but he's only intrested when he's crated. I've tried putting him on a down stay at my feet and given him a frozen peanut butter kong. He licks at the outside the pushes it away and bounce bounce bounce.

My household is also a firm believer in baby gates. Bunny stays confined to the room the person working with him is in, off leash or not.

Any time he does anything he's told, he's immediately rewarded. We use Charli Bears and dried liver cubes(a little smaller than the size of dice). I work in 5-10 second intervals. For every 5-10 seconds he's in a down(for example) he receives verbal praise and a food reward. He's never lasted longer than a minute.

I guess there's a sense of urgency, besides wanting him to behave inside, I have a fear of aggression. My Border Collie got bored and her boredom turned into aggression, she'd bite without warning over nothing(which is why she goes through obedience sessions daily, as well as going to a trainer for agility and herding, plus at home). She came close to a one way trip to the vets more than once. I don't want to go through that again. And his activity level is much more demanding than hers(also could be that he's a puppy) and it is a worry.

And yes, I know ALL about those funny Terrier ways. I was raised by a Wire Fox, Sealyham and Airedales lol. Very spunky dogs.

[info]miss_teacher

July 15 2005, 16:50:30 UTC 6 years ago

Charlie Bears are minimum wages treats but usually the liver bits are higher value. But each dog is different. I would get something completely new and amazing. Something your dog never gets unles you are working on these long down sessions. My own dogs loves string cheese. Or try bits of cooked chicken.

If you have something new and exciting he'll be more likely to work longer and harder for it than something he's used to getting and may get bored with quickly. A smart dog (as I am sure you already know) needs variety. Even if he *loves* treat number 1, if that's all that is used he may not keep performing for them. He'll eat them ok, just not work hard for them.

Vary the time he's required to be down. So at first you keep feeding him for 30 seconds, then get up and stretch. Then only do it for 15 sec, relax. Then 45 secs, etc. Bounce back and forth with the time interval. This way the exercise doesn't seem to just get worse and worse in his mind.

What do you put in the kong? Try experimenting. Try chicken, pizza, sausage, cheese, etc. Maybe when he's very active if it's too much work he gives up. So try putting in a tiny treat or two and make it easy to get out. Once he gets it, put in another, etc.

Will he stay put for a Greenie or Bullystick?

[info]aheadsuretospin

July 15 2005, 16:58:52 UTC 6 years ago

Okay, I'll have to try different treats.

I've but broken up treats(not training treats)in, as well as peanut butter, soup crackers, chicken, beef and PB, cut up lamb, various cheese, I've even soaked the kong in beef and chicken brother before freezing it to make it more enticing. I'll definately try just putting a few treats in, so it's not so tough for him. He might be easily discouraged.

I've also rewarded with his favorite toy for super long downs/sits that last about 40 seconds. That works sometimes.

And he's not a fan of chewy type things, he even refuses RMBs.

[info]woodrunner

July 15 2005, 20:04:56 UTC 6 years ago

Just a random comment, since everyone has given good suggestions (and made a few cracks about drama queen dogs that had me chuckling).

But I have to commend you for having a schedule for your dogs; dogs feel (at least, this is what I've observed) more secure knowing what will happen next.

[info]aheadsuretospin

July 15 2005, 22:36:58 UTC 6 years ago

I love having them on a schedule for the reason you stated. And I also felt it was important as all my dogs are rescues. I got the Border Collie at 2 weeks of age(left in a box on the porch) and my Pit Bull at 10 months(previously used for fighting). So I think having that extra stability helps them.

[info]woodrunner

July 16 2005, 14:33:24 UTC 6 years ago

It certainly sounds like it!

I have two border collies, and they both thrive on schedules. But because they have a schedule, if there is a kink in it they are okay with it, they adjust to changes a lot better than most other dogs I've seen. Friends of mine with a Husky don't have a set schedule, and when something major happens (like them leaving for the evening) the dog goes into a meltdown of varying degrees. If I go out for the evening, the dogs take the opportunity to nap because they know I'll be home later to take them out.

[info]daskolos

July 15 2005, 20:05:02 UTC 6 years ago

In my puppy class, they were very big on the "long down," which is something you can do with a dog even if they don't know down or stay. Basically you just lay the dog down (being as gentle as possible while still getting the job done) and then sit there with your hands hovering over the dog, to catch him and gently press him back down as soon as he tries to get up. Eventually you can take your hands further and further away from the dog, as he gets more used to the idea that when you lie him down he has to stay like that until you say OK (this is NOT a stay because you stay right next to the dog the whole time). Start out with trying for thirty seconds and work your way up. We were encouraged to get our dogs long-downing for thirty minutes at a time. I didn't do this much with my pup because I have other methods that were working with her, but in your situation it seems like a useful exercise for calmness and control.

Also, if your dog keeps getting up when you put him in a down stay, why not just put your foot on the leash once he's down? I don't mean flatten his head to the floor, just keep it short enough that he can't stand up. Any corrections he gets will only be the result of him pulling against it, just like when he bounces on the leash and you ignore his fit.

I know you're trying to do only positive reinforcement, but these are some fairly mild alternatives, if varying the treats and reward schedules doesn't work. (While I applaud you if you're able to get your dog to do what you want through purely positive methods, I believe that even major corrections are more humane than euthanizing a misbehaving dog...that is, that one-way trip to the vet you mentioned.)
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